Guns

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Guns

Post by Henrik on Mon Dec 24 2012, 09:06

Maybe some of you guys in the US can help me out here, but since the recent shootings I have been trying to find some argument as to why assault weapons should be legal. I get the whole self protection thing, and I am quite familiar with America's love for guns, but why assault weapons? Every response to such a question that I have found by NRA supporters (and other gun lovers) is almost always either a question in return or something along the lines of "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" thing. I have still to see a single valid argument in favour of assault weapons being owned by civilians.

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Re: Guns

Post by eso on Mon Dec 24 2012, 16:41

The NRA keeps the gun nuts in a paranoid frenzy and makes huge profits every time some tragedy like this happens. I know people who are so certain the "Obama is going to take their guns" that they stockpile ammo and but more guns. It's a goldmine for the arms dealers and the gun nuts just refuse to believe they are being fear-mongered and fleeced.

Assault rifles AND handguns are anti-personnel weapons period and I believe the former has no business in most people's hands and the latter needs to be highly regulated. I have no problem with those who are hunters and like to go bag a deer and eat it, but I really am against those who are "Trophy" hunters.

US Culture is violent and ignorant, so intelligent discussion about this domestically is next to impossible.


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Re: Guns

Post by Henrik on Tue Dec 25 2012, 17:50

Yeah eso, I get all that. As far as I am concerned nobody needs to have a gun at home.

Then I begin to wonder also how a group with 4 million members can have such an influence

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Re: Guns

Post by eso on Tue Dec 25 2012, 18:14

I'm not into guns at all, but I don't really mind rational people choosing otherwise. But that's the issue: so much gun ownership in this country is rabid and ignorant.

As far as the influence of the NRA, They are the public mouthpiece of the military/industrial complex and they just use fearmongering to stimulate sales to an ignorant mob with no real concern for the public consequences.

Consider too that arms/military production is one of the few remaining domestic manufacturing bases. The traditional rightwing economic stimulus is increased military spending. Domestic gun sales help that stimulus as well. But the rightwing would never publicly acknowledge that they are constantly engaged in economic stimulus although that is another topic.

Even our current fabricated government "Battle" (Economic Cliff) and the military cuts in the sequestration could have devastating consequences due to a spike in unemployment resulting from defense spending cuts... But I digress again.

I'd love to see serious gun control, but the panicky ignorant mob will really lose it it it is attempted. Obama really nailed it with his comment about people clinging to their bibles and guns in uncertain times.



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Re: Guns

Post by TopContender on Wed Dec 26 2012, 04:10

Assault weapons account for less than 2% of violent crimes. Interesting note is that we had an assault weapons ban that ended in 2004. In the years since that ban ended violent crime with assault weapons dropped.
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Re: Guns

Post by glendo on Wed Dec 26 2012, 06:07

look at some worldwide statistics TC... outside of american distortions.

rest of the developed world: less guns, stricter rules = very few mass killings

america: guns everywhere, virtually no rules = mass killings all the time.

you can forensically analyse american data to read it as you will, but look at how the rest of the world deals with guns...

do you really need guns anymore? the british are going to invade anymore, the 'injuns' are gone now. read the constitution's 'right to bear arms' in the context of the age it was written... 18th century.
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Re: Guns

Post by Henrik on Wed Dec 26 2012, 13:07

TopContender wrote:Assault weapons account for less than 2% of violent crimes. Interesting note is that we had an assault weapons ban that ended in 2004. In the years since that ban ended violent crime with assault weapons dropped.

TC, I don't care if not a single crime was committed with an assault weapon, I still don't see why any civilian should have one. Why not RPGs as well then? Maybe I could justify an RPG to hunt?

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Re: Guns

Post by TopContender on Wed Dec 26 2012, 14:22

Does anyone here think that the US government would have the balls to go house to house to grab these guns? Regardless of what you feel about the guns, the citizens would rise up on anyone who tries to take them.
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Re: Guns

Post by eso on Wed Dec 26 2012, 16:22

Henrik, as you can see TC makes my point perfectly. There is no possibility of rational discussion of the matter while that mindset remains.


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Re: Guns

Post by TopContender on Wed Dec 26 2012, 20:26

Is that what everyone is advocating, for the US Gov to grab the guns.
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Re: Guns

Post by glendo on Wed Dec 26 2012, 22:27

in Australia we had a gun buyback scheme, the govt bought back the guns, then destroyed them. there was a long amnesty, then after that if you got caught with them, big trouble.

but i dont think it's ever going to happen. the citizens are always scared, living in fear, thinking the end is coming. it's too late to save the US from guns IMO.

just gotta start building the fence to keep them in! LOL
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Re: Guns

Post by eso on Thu Dec 27 2012, 02:49

TopContender wrote:Is that what everyone is advocating, for the US Gov to grab the guns.

The only person that has mentioned the government taking guns back in this thread is you TC, and then you proceeded to try to dovetail that into a typical NRA/Rightwing talking point based purely on your own rhetorical diversion.

You were a Ron Paul supporter for god sakes... have you gotten on the secessionist bandwagon too? To need real tinfoil for that hat though. Tin blocks the signals, but Aluminum foil Actually amplifies them. Your local markets will carry Tin Foil but you have to ask for it and asking will be a bit of a red flag to the NSA so be careful...


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Re: Guns

Post by Danny Boy on Thu Dec 27 2012, 04:53

I think the obvious answer is, american ban all gun and ammunition sales tomorrow, then all the gun owners go through the bible belt and kill all people who believe the world is only 10,000 years old, then turn the guns on themselves and keep shooting until there is no one left.
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Re: Guns

Post by TopContender on Thu Dec 27 2012, 05:19

eso wrote:
TopContender wrote:Is that what everyone is advocating, for the US Gov to grab the guns.

The only person that has mentioned the government taking guns back in this thread is you TC, and then you proceeded to try to dovetail that into a typical NRA/Rightwing talking point based purely on your own rhetorical diversion.

You were a Ron Paul supporter for god sakes... have you gotten on the secessionist bandwagon too? To need real tinfoil for that hat though. Tin blocks the signals, but Aluminum foil Actually amplifies them. Your local markets will carry Tin Foil but you have to ask for it and asking will be a bit of a red flag to the NSA so be careful...


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Oh you misread my intent. I was just curious to see if that was what people advocated. I was just pointing out that even the thought of grabbing guns would start a riot.

As for Ron Paul, he is with me not the gun issue. He doesn't think new laws would do a thing, because the criminal don't care about laws. Look at the Sandy Hook kid, he stole the guns he used. Also a kid with that kind of mental issues isn't allowed to have a gun. Putting more laws on the books would just mean that the criminal would be charged with more after the fact.
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Re: Guns

Post by Danny Boy on Thu Dec 27 2012, 05:30

TopContender wrote:

Look at the Sandy Hook kid, he stole the guns he used. Also a kid with that kind of mental issues isn't allowed to have a gun.

Who said the kid would not be allowed to buy a gun, if that was the case, then why was his mother allowed to own so many guns and allow him access to them.

I wonder what thought went through her small mind when she saw her son pointing the gun at her. Just wish more stupid americans had the reality of their stupidity rammed home to them in the same manner.
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Re: Guns

Post by da silva on Thu Dec 27 2012, 05:35

If you can't have peanuts in a school because someone might be allergic, you shouldn't have guns in society because someone might be insane.

TC, 2% of gun crimes in the US is a 1000% more than anywhere else in the world.
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Re: Guns

Post by da silva on Thu Dec 27 2012, 05:39

In the US the states have different laws for background checks, but all states have them. However, if you attend a gun show you can privately purchase a handgun, assault rifle, semi automatic or even a military grade automatic weapon without a background check. So tell me again how the criminals can get weapons.

I'd be all for the goverment going in and confiscating weapons, I think they should have the mothers of the over 10,000 children murdered by guns to do it.
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Re: Guns

Post by glendo on Thu Dec 27 2012, 08:46

criminals are not a breed of persons, a job or a species. it's the point where a person decides to break the rules.

there is no mental health criteria to commit a crime. perfectly sane people break laws too. perfectly (mentally) healthy people kill people too.

on another note. the NRA stance that teachers/principals should be armed send shivers down my spine. does the USA realise it would probably be the only country on the planet that school teachers would be packing weapons to teach kids how to read??? if i lived there, and that was the final solution, i would be moving my family to canada.

where is the commonsense/ greater good or wellbeing in that? people should just think about that for a second.
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Re: Guns

Post by da silva on Thu Dec 27 2012, 15:32

glendo wrote:criminals are not a breed of persons, a job or a species. it's the point where a person decides to break the rules.

there is no mental health criteria to commit a crime. perfectly sane people break laws too. perfectly (mentally) healthy people kill people too.

on another note. the NRA stance that teachers/principals should be armed send shivers down my spine. does the USA realise it would probably be the only country on the planet that school teachers would be packing weapons to teach kids how to read??? if i lived there, and that was the final solution, i would be moving my family to canada.

where is the commonsense/ greater good or wellbeing in that? people should just think about that for a second.

I'd be curious to hear what the NRA would say when a teacher loses it and pulls the weapon on the class. It would be when not if.
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Re: Guns

Post by Henrik on Thu Dec 27 2012, 15:48

The NRA will then just say that they need to also put armed guards in all the classrooms, or perhaps make kids carry guns. You know, the whole only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun...

But TC, to try and answer your question, yes I believe the rest of the world would like for the US to confiscate all the private weapons. I don't think there are many people outside the US that understand the attachment Americans have to guns. Personally I hate the things.

I did read an interesting article the other day about a possible way to reduce the number of guns in the US. Impose the need for all gun owners to take an insurance. This would then lead to more dangerous weapons such as assault weapons to cost more than perhaps a WW1 gun to hang on the wall. Also, the insurance companies would require more thorough checks on people before accepting to issue the insurance since they could be liable by its user. Also, you can't really argue that this is unconstitutional.

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Re: Guns

Post by TopContender on Thu Dec 27 2012, 21:43

Henrik, I would argue the insurance is unconstitutional. You would be forcing people to buy something. Also, some people already insure their guns through their homeowners policy.

That said, my son's school has administrators with access to guns. They are required to go to sharpshooting class before they start employment. We also have key codes, police, and cameras all through the facility. This is a Jewish facility so they have done this for years.
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Re: Guns

Post by eso on Thu Dec 27 2012, 22:48

If we can be required to have auto insurance to drive I don't see any roadblocks to having to insure firearms and have policies in place for their use. After all, cars are for transportation with injuries as a collateral risk while guns are a weapon with injury highly probable any time they are used or handled.


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Re: Guns

Post by Henrik on Thu Dec 27 2012, 22:49

TopContender wrote:Henrik, I would argue the insurance is unconstitutional.

But then one could argue very easily that the current controls imposed on airtravel are very unconstitutional, yet they are in place for reasons of national security...

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Re: Guns

Post by TopContender on Sat Dec 29 2012, 03:49

Yes, but air travel is based off airline rules. If you want to fly with them, you must follow the rules. It is also an elective priviledge. Like a drivers license.

As for guns, it is a constitutional right like free speech. Just because one doesn't like what one says, owns, or uses doesn't allow the government to take it away.
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Re: Guns

Post by Henrik on Sat Dec 29 2012, 06:35

The thing is, airtravel did not exist when the constitution was written, and neither did assault weapons or automatic weapons. The world has evolved since then, and it is time to stop applying these changes in a selective way when it is convenient.

Talking to pro gun people is like talking to religious nuts. They will quote the constitution like they quote the bible when it is convenient or serves their belief.

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Re: Guns

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