MotoGP Rules and Problems

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MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by Henrik on Wed Oct 26 2011, 13:36

Given the discussion starting on the SIC 58 thread, I thought it best to move this over to another thread.

I mentioned to Revs that I did not agree with a number of things he said there, and that I would get to it in another thread. In the meantime, H8 pretty muched wrapped up what I wanted to say. The core of the problem is the 800cc bikes, but also fixing that will not remove the risk to riding. The sort of accident that Marco suffered can always happen in bike racing, and chances are it will again in the future. Tomizawa's accident last year in Moto2 was quite similar in that he crashed in to the trajectory, and the two riders just behind him could do nothing to avoid hitting him. Craig Jones also was killed in a similar way at Brands Hatch in 2008 on a Supersport. Neither of those two classes are suffering from the same problems that MotoGP is, as they have little to no traction control, and they don't have the difficult tires either.

So much has been done over the years to improve safety in bike racing, which is why most of the crashes leaves the riders walking away with minimum injuries. They no longer risk hitting obstacles as they slide of, and what happened to Rainey is today very unlikely. However, the fact that a rider's body is exposed leaves them in danger should they end up in the trajectory and be hit by other riders. Randy was lucky last year at Sachsenring as it was "only" his leg that got run over and broken.

However, there is much that is wrong with the 800cc MotoGP bikes, and H8 provided a good description. To answer TC's question, it is very likely that Spies will be in a much better position on the 1000cc bikes. He is possibly the heaviest rider in the field, and he has come up through WSBK racing. His style is exactly one that should work well on bikes with much torque and HP, and require rider input to go well. The unknown today is obviously how good the new Yamaha will be. Still, I expect him to be regularly ahead of his teammate, which will be the best comparison.

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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by PLAYLIFE on Thu Oct 27 2011, 01:26

Apart from power to weight, if you applied a weight restriction, would that then favour the bigger guys because they are able to transfer more mass around the bike helping handling?

I'm not a motorbike rider so can't appreciate the dynamics of rider position etc as you riders can. I only ever rode a bike once, a 200cc trail bike of some sort where I lost control doing a mono and landed on the bike smashing my ribs as the foot peg dug into my chest lol. Never again.
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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by Henrik on Thu Oct 27 2011, 08:05

The power to weight ratio is obviously crucial. As H8R explained in the other thread, a rider like Pedrosa can be said to have a 7HP advantage over Spies (I think that was the figure he came to).

By applying weight restrictions it is more a question of eliminating this advantage, and providing all the riders with a level playing field. Why I personally believe a rider like Spies might benefit more from a formula with weight restrictions and less traction control is that it is much more physical to get the most out of such a machine. A rider who is more muscular would stand a better chance in properly controlling the bike to go as fast as possible.

I don't think that being able to transfer more mass around the bike helps them though. Each rider is able to adapt quite well to a mass deficit by modifying their riding style and position on the bike.

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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by H8R on Thu Oct 27 2011, 22:31

Minimum weights for bike and rider would eliminate the perceived differences in fuel use, and the obvious difference in acceleration.

As far as next year goes with the radical concept of the "claiming rule teams", and the larger motors I'd expect lots of stuff to change except who's up front. Simply put the fast guys who win now, will be fast and win in 2012, and the factory teams, and the people leasing factory bikes should be close on the first race weekend, but in reality the crews who work with the top guys are amazing. The satellite teams might have a shot at a podium the first few rounds...but after that I'd look for Casey, Dani, Vale, Jorge, and possibly Ben to be up front.


I haven't had the heart ask anyone, but will Gresini still have a 3rd factory Honda RC213V? Since Marco is gone does that disappear as well? Does this change Marc Marquez's plan for 2012? I don't know...and I think I will keep my mouth shut, since many people are going to be asking the same thing.
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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by TopContender on Fri Oct 28 2011, 00:11

Maybe there is an unknown option on Dovi even though he is with Tech3 in 2012. Honda can send him to Gresini with a factory bike.
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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by H8R on Fri Oct 28 2011, 00:32

TopContender wrote:Maybe there is an unknown option on Dovi even though he is with Tech3 in 2012. Honda can send him to Gresini with a factory bike.

My thought was that RdP might get lucky and get a deal.
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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by gueuzeman on Fri Oct 28 2011, 03:17

"My thought was that Run GP might get lucky and get a deal."

I like the sound of that!!

.
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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by Henrik on Fri Oct 28 2011, 13:52

Seeing what Randy was able to do on the LCR Honda, I would love to see him on a factory bike.

However, I think it will come down to sponsors in the end and Randy would not be able to bring the sponsors/money needed. Marquez might be an option, but I think he (and Alzamora) really want another year in Moto2. Also, he is a Repsol rider. The big problem though is that normally a rookie can't get a factory bike, which would really rule him out.

I would love to see Hoppers get a chance to really shine, but I think he is now tied up with a Crescent Suzuki effort in WSBK (which ultimately will be great for the WSBK!).

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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by H8R on Sat Oct 29 2011, 00:26

Looks like two time repeating AMA Superbike Champion Josh Hayes will be racing Colin's Tech 3 Yamaha at Valencia...Thats a tough job....new bike, new tires, new track...with no previous experience. Josh was originally slated to ride the bike on Monday after the season as a present for winning Yamaha the crown again this year.

Go Josh!
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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by Revs on Sat Oct 29 2011, 09:52

sorry its taken ages to get back about this topic... crazy week.

i agree with you guys...

i do think theres something in the front wheel skid cover or whatever it might be called, but the riding rules part wouldnt work...

sorry that my first response was a little off the sleeve, i just think that there's always something that can be done... given that the 800c has been bad from the beginning, and nothing was done about it, i just cant help but feel the guys involved in safety at motogp are inept and callous.

as for the wheel cover, i spoken to a few people about it and they all agree there could be something in it... afteralll, if it wasn't designed correctly it could even cause what happened to Marco...

on that note... i think Marco was trying the impossible... i think the other riders were correct to voice their concerns earlier in the year... i think its a shame nothing effective was done about it... i find it very hard to believe that Casey or Lorenzo would hold onto it for that long... they just wouldnt... call them nancy, but there's a small semi-dormant remnant of self preservation in them that just wasnt there with Marco...

i also think, that if the front wheel cover was designed correctly, the riders would be totally fine with it... it would only do its job once the nose was dropped, and theyd all be happy for it to take them, or the guy right infront of them, off into the kitty litter predictably... some super skiddy or soft material that rubs away more than it grips... i think it would work best with a combination oif harder compounds towards the edge of the tyre... but an engineer could design it...

at the end of the day, its just racing... and anyone that likes to think of it as a gladiatorial blood sport should probably go and join the army...

racing will always be way more art than attitude for me...
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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by H8R on Sat Oct 29 2011, 18:03

Revs-

To start here is the list of MotoGP Deaths since 1983 when tracks really became safer:

1983 Michel Frutschi (SUI) GP Le Mans
1989 Iván Palazzese (VEN) GP Hockenheim
2003 Daijiro Kato (JPN) GP Suzuka
2010 Shoya Tomizawa (JPN) GP Misano
2011 Marco Simoncelli (ITA) GP Sepang

The technical regulations that gave us the 800cc bike was from the manufacturers, not Dorna. Dorna has had no control over those. We have the CRT now as way for Dorna to regain some control over the tech.regs, and to eliminate 800cc and the issues they caused.

Your comment about Marco saving the impossible is naive. What about Jorge's crash at P.I the week before? Do we now need a control for that? Remember that Jorge lost the end of his finger because he wouldn't let go of the bike. Should I start a list of every rider who saved an "impossible" crash, and should we then make a rule about it? Maybe you can think up a kooky little cover for gloves to protect fingers....or better yet how about we put racers in a cage and surround them with carbon fiber...and add two wheels?

Your comment about "riders being ok with it" (your device that would cause them to crash) did you get that feeling from the vast amount of racers you talk to at all levels of motorcycle roadracing on a regular basis?

Most of your comments seem about Marco seem to denigrate him. It shows you don't understand the sport, the racers, and what they know they risk.

You can not legislate away every possibility. You can not prevent all deaths in Motorcycle Roadracing.

Racing isn't a gladiatorial sport. Racers don't go out to get hurt, or hurt each other, but it is a blood sport. Racers are going to get injured, and some are going to die. As a former racer I know this, as a guy who works in the racing industry it is our greatest fear. Maybe you should watch the movie 24 hours of LeMans again with Steve McQueen, you could see where my "blood sport" comment comes from.
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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by Henrik on Sat Oct 29 2011, 21:36

Funny you should mention the Steve McQueen movie Le Mans. My passion for motor racing started when I first saw that movie, at the age of 6 or 7. It made a huge impression on me at the time, and the passion has stayed with me since.

I still find that passion in motorcycle racing, and it has nothing to do with dying on a race track.

I can accept the fact that it is a dangerous sport. In a perfect world I would love for the danger factor to be removed, but as I see it by taking that issue too far to take away the sould of it.

There have been many times that I almost gave up on motor sports as one of my heroes died. Yet my passion has always brought me back in the end. The thing is, people die every day, but we don't stop living because of it. One of my all time favourite riders was Norrick Abe. I loved the pure genious he would show from time to time, and he could very well have been one of those racers that dies on a track. But he died on the road riding a scooter.

At the end of the day, I love riding motorcycles. I realize there is clearly an element of danger to it, and I hope that I never get seriously hurt from it. However, I love it and need it enough to take the risk. If I didn't, then perhaps life wouldn't really be worth living at all. And to put things in perspective, I think my love for riding is nothing in comparison to the guys in MotoGP....

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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by PLAYLIFE on Mon Oct 31 2011, 03:33

H8R

Since including Tomizawa in Moto2, there were also these fatalities in the timeframe you used:
1983 - Rolf Rüttimann (GER) Yugoslav GP (125cc)
1983 - Norman Brown (NIR) British GP (500cc)
1983 - Peter Huber (SUI) British GP (500cc)
1984 - Kevin Wrettom (ENG) Belgian GP (500cc)
1993 - Nobuyuki Wakai (JAP) Spanish GP (250cc)

Brown was touring when hit from behind by Huber, both fatally injured.
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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by Revs on Mon Nov 21 2011, 07:51

sorry its been a while again... dont mean to drag this on... but hey...

with all those ideas i came up with, i was primarily proving that there are many things that could be done... they may not be pallettable, but they could be done...

H8R wrote:Your comment about "riders being ok with it" (your device that would cause them to crash) did you get that feeling from the vast amount of racers you talk to at all levels of motorcycle roadracing on a regular basis?

the way i envisioned it working, would not cause them to crash... but rather take them off the track when they do... the limit is always going to be the limit... thats racing... but if that limit had a clinical edge to it, that would take the riders out of harms way... then there shouldnt be a single rider that would disagree with it... the only thing theyd hate is the change itself... but if they disagreed with that principle then, yes, they would be, imo, incapable of determining risk adequately, and it would callous for anyone to knowingly let someone like that out on track... i dont mean to rile you up at all... but if safety concerns arent addressed from within the fold, then they will be addressed from outside... residents are already closing tracks for just the noise alone...

but i'm convinced that something could be designed (that would alter the way a bike looks, sure, and that might upset lots of people in itself) but that wouldnt cause an accident, but would make it safer when it happens... that is entirely a engineering problem for which i am not qualified... but as a racer and motorpsorts follower myself, i'm more than qualified to make the suggestion...


but a racer will ride anything... so we should make sure the bikes are as safe as possible, so when they wave off the risk, the tyre suppliers and the series adudicators take on more of the responsibility... if they were accountable, there would be no bullshit cold tyres on twitchy widow making 800cs, theyd be too scared to risk their assets...

afaic crazy is a term of endearment for a motogp rider...
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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by Revs on Mon Nov 21 2011, 09:38

the interview with Dani is very interesting... http://mag.gpweek.com/

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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by Henrik on Tue Nov 22 2011, 14:11

The problem Revs in my opinion is that something like that will have a big impact on how the bike behaves. Making millimeter adjustments on the fork setup can completely modify a bike, so imagine what something like you suggest would do.

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Re: MotoGP Rules and Problems

Post by H8R on Tue Nov 22 2011, 16:14

Revs...no one would be ok with a device designed to make you crash if you exceed some arbitrary line.

Imagine, if you will, what happened to Spies at P.I at +150mph. Ben lost the front. He easily could've been killed or paralyzed. Now imagine that happening as someone went down the inside of a slower rider on flyer during Q. Imagine the faster rider taking out the slower rider.

You can't legislate motorcycle roadracing to a point where it turns into car racing.

Here's something else where make a mistake and you could die.



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