you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

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you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by glendo on Tue Jun 01 2010, 10:08

im sick and tired of their lame excuses. this is a scum act, and proof of how they believe they are above international law.

i hope they get what they deserve.
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by Henrik on Tue Jun 01 2010, 11:43

I have been following this pretty closely for some time. There has been much talk about the flotilla in the Swedish news as a number of Swedes have been involved in the whole thing.

To be honest, I was expecting this exact outcome. For sure it was done to put media pressure on Israel, and a forceful intervention was inevitable. Recent events have shown that they also tend to go too far, and the fact that so many people were killed is in line with Israel's actions on the Gaza strip.

What is particularly disturbing is the statements of several Jewish and Israeli representatives trying to justify the attack. I read one who was responding to the fact that it happened in international waters, saying that nobody really knows where the limits are for this. I suppose that you Glendo could have something to say about this. Others have said that the whole operation was organized by Al-Qaeda.

At the same time we have the whole non-proliferation of nuclear weapons discussion wanting to impose a non-nuclear zone in the Middle East. Here again Israel is reacting very strongly, saying that they are being singled out, and that this is hypocritical. Yet they hold for to their policy of ambiguity with regards to their nuclear weapons programme, having never admitted to it and subsequently never signing any treaty. It is about time this shit gets sorted out as well.

I sincerely hope that the death of these people is not for nothing, and that the world finally decides to leave history in the past and react in the same way they would have to any other nation in the world behaving like Israel is now.

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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by gueuzeman on Tue Jun 01 2010, 13:01

Behaving more and more like North Korea every day. Still, no one has as bad a haircut as Kim Jong Il.

And until the U.S. actually cuts off thew money, nothing will happen. Look at the recent announcements of new settlements when Vice President Biden was visiting.

Basic B.F. Skinner applied behavior analysis says that rewarding bad behavior only encourages it, and inconsistent response is as good an no response. Doesn't matter if it's an animal, a human, or a nation.

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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by glendo on Tue Jun 01 2010, 13:21

International Maritime Law (with the exception of Israel of course) recognises National boundaries at 12 Nautical Miles from the coast. Foreign warships etc that enter these boundaries without consent could be construed as an act of war.

Trade vessels, freight etc have a right to traverse through territorial waters in a right of free passage, if they are not stopping in that country.

but we know some countries dont recognise or respect international law.......

just last week an Israeli diplomat was expelled from australia in connection to the assassination of the hezbollah or hammas guy in the UAE. they used 7 fake passports from various countries, 2 from australia. evidence connected israel to it.

i would love to see the USA finally say "we are sick of your antics, you are now on your own". Now if they were nice people they wouldnt have nothing to worry about now would they?

you reap what you sow. and i dont eat bullshit so dont try and feed it to me.
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by Henrik on Tue Jun 01 2010, 14:21

Given the very influential Jewish community in the US, and their blind support of Israel, I can't imagine the US ever cutting Israel off. Add to that the strategic importance of maintaining a "friendship" with Israel with regards to the Middle Eastern situation, I think it will take Israel exterminating completely the Palestinians to get the US to drop their support.

With regards to territorial waters, I can confirm through first hand experience of my brother that Israel does not care one bit about international maritime law. They breach it on a daily basis, and nothing is ever said about this and nobody ever does anything.

Sort of like the never ending list of UN resolutions against them that are never respected...

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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by da silva on Tue Jun 01 2010, 19:22

Henrik wrote:Given the very influential Jewish community in the US, and their blind support of Israel, I can't imagine the US ever cutting Israel off. Add to that the strategic importance of maintaining a "friendship" with Israel with regards to the Middle Eastern situation, I think it will take Israel exterminating completely the Palestinians to get the US to drop their support.

With regards to territorial waters, I can confirm through first hand experience of my brother that Israel does not care one bit about international maritime law. They breach it on a daily basis, and nothing is ever said about this and nobody ever does anything.

Sort of like the never ending list of UN resolutions against them that are never respected...

The Irish used to get a lot of support from the US and that mess has been resolved, so I suppose there is hope in the future as a precedent actually exists. Personally I hope all of the religious zealots kill each other off and then the enlightened people can live happily ever after!
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by TopContender on Wed Jun 02 2010, 00:58

Can I get the cliff notes version of this? I am hearing that turkey sent some ships filled with protestors by Gaza. The Jews boarded the ships, and were attacked.
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by Henrik on Wed Jun 02 2010, 06:58

That sounds like the Fox News version...

For starters, the Israeli attack took place in international waters. Second, the ships being attacked by the Israeli navy had no firearms.

So let's see, the Israeli navy attacks unarmed ships in international waters, and then they claim they were attacked. Okay...

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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by glendo on Wed Jun 02 2010, 09:35

TC, look around for a non-american or israeli newsfeed.
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by Danny Boy on Wed Jun 02 2010, 09:45

Israel have been getting almost as much International pressure/condemnation in the last 12 months, as it did 9 years ago, if calls start to come for War Crimes trials to start, look out for a miraculous 9-11 to take the pressure off.

You will also see web sites inundated with messages supporting Israel and distorting the facts, these will be a typical reaction from the Zionist Bodies that move (very professionally) into action the moment Israel receives bad/negative, press.
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by Henrik on Wed Jun 02 2010, 11:17

Interesting comparison with Ireland, although I don't believe the problem is of the same scope. I don't really have any first hand knowledge of the situation with Ireland, but you may remember a former member called Rich (not Rick from Australia), who was from Northern Ireland. We had a lot of discussions off the forum about the situation there, and certainly his opinion is that it is far from resolved. Perhaps Danny Boy can give us some insight as well...

As far as I see it, the isolation of the Gaza strip only helps in strengthening the growing hatred of Israel and the development of more determined terrorists. Gaza is entirely run by the Hamas, and they provide all the social services such as education etc. You can just imagine the sort of education they are providing. So, not to take any blame away from the Hamas, Israel are themselves just making the situation worse through their actions.

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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by Danny Boy on Wed Jun 02 2010, 11:31

In memory, they hope for peace, but will go back to the gun and bomb if it goes back to the evil ways of the Protestant dominated era:

This song;

Joe McDonnell

is very good, the Wolf Tones were playing in Bahrain in March this year, good concert and very emotional.
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by Srrh on Wed Jun 02 2010, 12:41

isn't this the definition of piratry ?

Can you imagine if Iran had done this ?

You know, THERE ARE secular centrist jews in Israel...these people must feel so abandoned...
Like being a democrat living in the bible belt during the Bush years...
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by glendo on Wed Jun 02 2010, 13:30

i know there are lots of anti zionists jews in israel, and around the world. i feel for them, as this runs them through the mud as well.

im just sick of it all as a human being. i just wished they would go through some sort of enlightenment, and be the pivot in a newer age of world peace; or someone would just nuke the place and be done with it..........
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by Revs on Wed Jun 02 2010, 15:44

Israel's days are numbered... you watch, they'll pay for this, big time... they killed 9 people staging a humanitarian aid demonstration that was designed to trigger this exact response, and Israel complied... utter filth... they are what they are... and now theyre going to pay.... bout time... disarm them and let the arab world push them into the sea, friendless.
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by da silva on Wed Jun 02 2010, 22:56

Danny Boy wrote:In memory, they hope for peace, but will go back to the gun and bomb if it goes back to the evil ways of the Protestant dominated era:


Do you mean the terrorizing of innocent men, women and children? Don't you think it's convenient that those Irish bastards came to some sort of agreement right before the US declared a war on terror? Coincidence, I don't think so!
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by Danny Boy on Thu Jun 03 2010, 09:42

da silva wrote:
Danny Boy wrote:In memory, they hope for peace, but will go back to the gun and bomb if it goes back to the evil ways of the Protestant dominated era:


Do you mean the terrorizing of innocent men, women and children

Over 700 hundred years of abuse, humiliation, suffering, and millions of deaths at the hands of the British and their supplanted occupiers!!! compared to just over 3,000 deaths in the "Troubles"?

I would say the British got off very lightly, especially as none of them were ever bought to justice/face War Crime Trials.
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by TopContender on Fri Jun 04 2010, 04:51

OK
1. Jews setup blockade of Gaza
2. Turks try to break blockade
3. Jews board ship in international waters.
4. 5 of 6 ships boarded peacefully, 1 was hostile.
5. People are killed.
6. More people coming to break blockade.

I have to say this but the Jews were wrong in boarding the ships in international waters. However, the Turks were wrong to even attempt such an act. Everyone knows what the Jews are going to do, so why provoke them.
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by Henrik on Fri Jun 04 2010, 09:03

TopContender wrote:OK
1. Jews setup blockade of Gaza
2. Turks try to break blockade
3. Jews board ship in international waters.
4. 5 of 6 ships boarded peacefully, 1 was hostile.
5. People are killed.
6. More people coming to break blockade.

I have to say this but the Jews were wrong in boarding the ships in international waters. However, the Turks were wrong to even attempt such an act. Everyone knows what the Jews are going to do, so why provoke them.

Very nice and simple explanation. You could have changed the word "Turks" to Arabs instead, or perhaps moslems, so it would have read "Jews vs Moslems".

So, in your opinion, the rest of the world should just let Israel do whatever they want in the area because we know they will get pissed off and will probably shoot us if we try and do something about it.

From what I can gather, the situation is a bit more complex. For starters, it was not just a Turkish intervention. Indeed, the ship on which the people were killed was a Turkish registered vessel, and a number of the people aboard were also Turkish. However, the movement was orchestrated by a number of global movements working to try and help the Palestinians. There was a lot of involvement also from countries such as Sweden, who had a number of people on board the boats. From first hand reports of these people, it appears the Israeli forces actually began firing even before boarding the ship. Then, as soldiers boarded, both from helicopters and small vessels, and as has been stated still in international waters, some began trying to fight back with wooden clubs and iron bars. I suppose you then find it fair and just that the Israeli soldiers fired back with machine guns killing the people trying to defend their ship.

This would be like if there had been an anti war demonstration in the US, and the government then sends in the national guard to stop it, and they end up shooting the demonstrators. Actually, it would almost be like if there was an anti America demonstration taking place just across the border in Canada, and then the US sending the national guard in to stop it and killing the demonstrators on Canadian soil. Let's say the group started marching from Windsor towards Detroit, and the US army went in to Canada to stop them.

Part of the problem with Israel is that they feel that every time the UN issues a resolution against them it is unfair and driven by a global anti-Israel movement. As a result, they have the right to ignore it. Perhaps they should also ignore the UN decision to actually create Israel in the first place then too...

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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by glendo on Fri Jun 04 2010, 10:13

why do americans say moslem? it's mUslim.
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by Henrik on Fri Jun 04 2010, 12:13

I'm not an American!

But here is an explanation:

Is it Muslim or Moslem?

When Baby Boomers were children it was Moslem. The American Heritage Dictionary (1992) noted, "Moslem is the form predominantly preferred in journalism and popular usage. Muslim is preferred by scholars and by English-speaking adherents of Islam." No more. Now, almost everybody uses Muslim.

According to the Center for Nonproliferation Studies, "Moslem and Muslim are basically two different spellings for the same word." But the seemingly arbitrary choice of spellings is a sensitive subject for many followers of Islam. Whereas for most English speakers, the two words are synonymous in meaning, the Arabic roots of the two words are very different. A Muslim in Arabic means "one who gives himself to God," and is by definition, someone who adheres to Islam. By contrast, a Moslem in Arabic means "one who is evil and unjust" when the word is pronounced, as it is in English, Mozlem with a z.

For others, this spelling differentiation is merely a linguistic matter, with the two spellings a result of variation in transliteration methods. Both Moslem and Muslim are used as nouns. But some writers use Moslem when the word is employed as an adjective.

Journalists switched to Muslim from Moslem in recent years under pressure from Islamic groups. But the use of the word Moslem has not entirely ceased. Established institutions which used the older form of the name have been reluctant to change. The American Moslem Foundation is still the American Moslem Foundation (much as the NAACP is still the NAACP--the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People). The journal The Moslem World--published by the Hartford Seminary in Connecticut--is still The Moslem World.

So I suppose I was referring to "one who is evil and unjust".

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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by Henrik on Fri Jun 04 2010, 12:20

I read this today, with regards to the autopsy of the victims on the boat:

In one case, Ince said, a gunshot victim had been shot at at extremely close range.

"From the analysis of the bullet distance on one of the bodies," Dr. Ince said, "the gun was fired between 2 and 14 centimeters' distance from the victim's head."

If that is true, it sounds more like an execution than a shot in self defence...

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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by TopContender on Sat Jun 05 2010, 00:37

I am not saying it is right or wrong. However, if you have a mean dog that bites you would have to be a retard to piss them off.
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by glendo on Sat Jun 05 2010, 15:49

the point is: it shouldn't be a mean dog.... it should be trained to play fairly... or put down.
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Re: you cant tell me israel acted in self defence this time?

Post by TopContender on Sat Jun 05 2010, 16:46

I agree, but still we all know what happens when people press them.

Obama is now taking a ton of heat over this. He is being characterized as anti-Jew. Not good for an election year
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